| Author |
Message |
    
pipling
Member
Username: Reality
Post Number: 256
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 04, 2009 - 04:34 pm: | |
People have good and bad experiences of the NHS. I have had both. The fundamental question is this though:-
1.Is health provision something that we should all pay for through national insurance?
Or
2.should we all be responsible for our personal health plans?
Surely 1. is right.
Anyone with experience of the American system will see the disparity between the provision for those who can afford good health care and those who can't. |
Duende
Member
Username: Duende
Post Number: 82
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, September 03, 2009 - 02:45 pm: | |
Ah, the pure simplicity of personal responsibility. Why can't people just do what they are meant to do?!
I don't know if anyone has noticed the smell in the interview rooms? To me it's poverty, neglect, exclusion and misery. Have we any inkling of the lives of others? There is a pivotal place for personal responsibility but unless we see the structural issues we are working blind. It's called the Big Picture and the same goes for the structural issues surrounding the failings of the NHS as highlighted so well by Rob.
It's this simplistic blame culture which is destroying the NHS, literally selling probation down the penal river and undermining the whole concept of public service because.. what government wants to stick it's neck out with services that are so readily blamed without insight or mercy? "Let's just farm the whole bloody lot out to whoever charges the least and promises the most". Now THAT'S abdicating responsibility!! |
papa_chango
Member
Username: Papa_chango
Post Number: 532
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 03, 2009 - 12:58 pm: | |
http://therealnews.com/t/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74& jumival=4166
I hope this link works. The Real News, insightful. |
Rob Palmer
Moderator
Username: Rob_palmer
Post Number: 490
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, September 03, 2009 - 10:16 am: | |
JustaTPO - because it was 'the establishment', the the form of the mintisers/bureaucrats/civil servants that led the NHS into the situation where it was forced to privatise significant parts of the operation such as the laundering of linen etc to companies that saved money by washing stuff at lower temperatures, therefore reducing the sterilisation effect of the process or by bringing in outside caterers who, in order to make a profit, reduce portion size to a derisory level or by introducing 'commissioning' processes that result in management spending vast amounts of their time (and money) on moving money around instead of dealing with the health of the patients, and by the introduction of PFIs that tie up millions in ill-advised long-term deals that are not in the interests of patients.
Or by outsourcing cleaning to organisations that pay their staff so poorly that they attract the worst candidates, the turnover is massive and the motivation to do the job properly low.
Yes, we can effect change but it is hard for little people to fight against the fat cats when they prevent discourse e.g. the ignoring of consultations that don't give them the answers they want (and the use of two-week consultation periods on life changing decisions).
I don't think, therefore I'm not.
|
justa TPO
Member
Username: Justa_tpo
Post Number: 387
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 02, 2009 - 10:53 pm: | |
Once again this forum has forced me to change my opinion.
It would appear that lack of basic hygiene, un-sterilised equipment; haemophiliacs’ being infected with HIV, people being unfed, dirty wards, Cdiff and a whole range of other problems are not caused because people did not do their job properly. It's because of the 'establishment'. The same one that we (repeatedly) voted in. So, in a circumnavigatious way, it’s our fault.
Well I'll go t'foot of my stairs. Thank you for enlightening me.
Oh, and if I lost a loved one because of the failings of the NPS or NHS, I would not give a damm for any claims that they did not do what was needed because they had reviews, boxes to tick , calls to make etc etc. If you think that is in any way acceptable, then my erudite friends, you are quite plainly mad! That just absolves anyone of any personal responsibility. We would not accept that reason from our punters, so what on earth makes people think that it is acceptable for use to use it? |
devonboy
Member
Username: Morgan144
Post Number: 47
Registered: 02-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 02, 2009 - 03:52 pm: | |
Reminds me of a headline in Private Eye – “NHS in Meltdown, in 150 years we’ll all be dead” revelation!
Quite why the healthcare debate in the US has suddenly mutated into a debate on the future of the NHS is beyond me. What seems to be happening to the NHS is a whispering campaign with the intention of undermining all that is good by accentuating the bad. It’s the same process that we in probation have been exposed to over recent years and it’s why we are now in such a mess. The problem is that the more negative rubbish, non-truth and downright lies that come from the centre, the more the great British public believes it. This is then interpreted (entirely wrongly) by our politicians as justification for dismantling/abolishing/screwing over whichever public body is flavour of the week. There is no coherent policy imperitive in this process, it just takes on a life of its’ own and before we know it we’ll all be paying to see our GP or having our credit rating checked before they take out our appendix. Of course this will suit the Tories (both Labour and Conservative versions) down to the ground, what with their shares in BUPA and so on. |
The Boy
Member
Username: The_boy
Post Number: 113
Registered: 02-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 02, 2009 - 01:04 pm: | |
"I am appalled by the statement that the NHS "kills innocent people". Even more so that the statement was used simply to set up a weak anti-american joke."
Seconded. |
asyn
Member
Username: Arthursyn
Post Number: 50
Registered: 09-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 02, 2009 - 10:55 am: | |
I am appalled by the statement that the NHS "kills innocent people". Even more so that the statement was used simply to set up a weak anti-american joke.
This simply panders to the generally right wing anti-NHS lobby. The reality is that this government interferes in the NHS the same way as it interferes in everything else, including the probation service, and that this causes constant change and interference which is neither necessary nor helpful. It's ultimately destructive. It disempowers and demotivates staff, it directs funding wrongly (often to cronies in the private sector - as profit) and sets up meaningless performance targets. This we are all familiar with, so let's show some understanding to staff within the NHS and not undermine the service as a whole, or in principle. My dad died directly as a result of NHS shortcomings but I understand that the blame lies on the shoulders of bureaucrats and politicians, not the staff involved. I hope that people who lose loved ones due to the ineptitude of the probation service might look hard enough to see where the real blame might lie! |
justa TPO
Member
Username: Justa_tpo
Post Number: 386
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 01, 2009 - 09:38 pm: | |
The idea of coming second is an anathema to America.
However, it would appear that they are trying very hard to catch up. |
The Boy
Member
Username: The_boy
Post Number: 112
Registered: 02-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 01, 2009 - 01:20 pm: | |
"The Americans aren't too keen on the NHS as it's the only thing that's killed more innnocent people than them."
Eh? |
justa TPO
Member
Username: Justa_tpo
Post Number: 385
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, August 30, 2009 - 04:51 pm: | |
The Americans aren't too keen on the NHS as it's the only thing that's killed more innnocent people than them. |
Duende
Member
Username: Duende
Post Number: 78
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Monday, August 24, 2009 - 11:09 am: | |
brilliant and terrifying article.
We need to stand up for the NHS from an equality standpoint. Whether the Conservatives will do that is doubtful:
"If you see a friend about to make a terrible mistake you try and warn him ... We have lived through this mistake for 60 years now. It began with the best of intentions. It began because people thought it was wrong for those who weren't well off and who couldn't afford the best healthcare to be treated differently. Everyone felt it is a nice togetherness solidarity thing if we all took part in this experiment. But the reality is that it hasn't worked. It has made people iller ... As long as you have a socialist system, no amount of extra spending is going to save it".
Conservative MEP Daniel Hannan on US Fox TV.
Clearly to him equality is just a 'nice togetherness solidarity thing' and complete rubbish. |
Rob Palmer
Moderator
Username: Rob_palmer
Post Number: 485
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Monday, August 24, 2009 - 10:19 am: | |
If I were American, I would be dead, bankrupt or both. So would four other members of my extended family.
For all its failings, I would rather have the NHS than not.
I don't think, therefore I'm not.
|
Spike
Member
Username: Spike
Post Number: 1038
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, August 22, 2009 - 08:52 am: | |
Useful post Boy, i hadn't realised the rabid intensity with which the republicans have attacked the thought of a healthcare system. I was particularly astounded by this bit.
"These increasingly frenzied claims have become so detached from reality that they often seem like black comedy. The right-wing magazine US Investors' Daily claimed that if Stephen Hawking had been British, he would have been allowed to die at birth by its "socialist" healthcare system. Hawking responded with a polite cough that he is British, and "I wouldn't be here without the NHS"." |
The Boy
Member
Username: The_boy
Post Number: 109
Registered: 02-2009
| | Posted on Friday, August 21, 2009 - 10:59 am: | |
'... Last week, one of the Republicans sent to disrupt a healthcare town hall started a fight and was injured – and then complained he had no health insurance. I didn't laugh; I wanted to weep...'
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-republ icans-religion-and-the-triumph-of-unreason-1773994.html, 19/8/09 |
